Gulan: it has been for six months that ISIS has declared an Islamic Caliphate, which means the world has to fight a terrorist state. Since they have large territories under their control, in addition to human abilities and economic powers, it is a difficult task. To what extent has ISIS reshaped the definition of terrorism into a new phase?

Mayer: In two ways. The terrorist groups that we have seen in the past have been much more small scale. I mean, they were local in their orientation, and often associated—the way the west has seen them—with internationalism, with international groups. When the international groups were stateless and they had no outlet, they became terrorism and terrorism has been seen as their stateless person’s army. But ISIS is making something that is different by the fact that they are not place or space specific, they are interested in moving everywhere in the Middle East and all the way they course to the world, all the way to the Atlantic ocean, part of north Africa, in Nigeria, and all of that… so I think that the first thing to think about is how the appearance of ISIS has changed not only how the terrorism is, and what is the kind of terrorism, but also moved away from being a place specific kind of action. The fact is that they have been taken sort of the mode of terrorism to a much more mortal and cruel level and they do not stop at anything, they are much worse than any of the terrorist organizations that lived in the past.

Gulan: the world has reached the conclusion that ISIS cannot be sorted out by military means alone, and they need other forces to get involved, for example the Islamic countries, since the declaration of Islamic State by ISIS, have not been able to hold a conference for the international Union Muslim scholars to express their position regarding ISIS or condemn their actions. In your opinion, to what extent is it important for the Islamic countries to get involved in anti ISIS coalition?

Mayer: I think first of all we have to define who is an Islamic state? Are we looking at Pakistan? Are we looking at Saudi Arabia? They are like Muslim states but are they considered as part of your definition, or are they, for example, in the same category as Egypt or Jordan? I mean you have to be careful the way you define what Islamic states are. The charge for the creation of Pakistan was to create a state for all the Muslims in the world, it has been worked and that was the charge; that was not the charge for Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. So you really need to be careful as you define the Muslim states. The question is, to me, what should be all the Arab states’—not all Muslims—visions vis-à-vis ISIS? I think that is really a question.

Gulan: but my concern is that, for example, there are very few Islamic countries joined the international anti-Islamic State coalition. The other countries in the coalition are mostly western Christian countries. So to what extent might be combating ISIS change into Islam-Christian war?

Mayer: that is a very good question. I think that if the Islamic States want to be sovereign states, they have to fight ISIS because the idea behind ISIS is that ISIS is going to absorb the Islamic world and make it into one big Caliphate. In a Caliphate, there is no state system anymore. I don’t think it needs to be a divide between Muslims and Christians in the world. If the sovereign states of the Arab world, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, etc. continue to privilege the state system, they WILL fight ISIS because if they don’t, they won’t have states.

Gulan: how is it possible to prevent the countries in the region who secretly helping and funding ISIS?

Mayer: But I think they are doing it both ways. Look at Qatar, I do not know for sure but I have read something, I think Qatar is helping and supporting, but Qatar at the same time is also very important to continue to be a state system. I think, maybe, they want to be able to control ISIS’s activity by funding some of their activities. I don’t know… but I think to talk about Muslim-Christian division is really, really dangerous. I don’t think it is correct.

Gulan: As you Know Kurds are the only people that have been fighting ISIS honestly and bravely, and they have been able to change the dimension of the war and to hold ISIS back. So to what extent is it important for the world to take this position of Kurds into consideration?

Mayer: Absolutely. I think they are. Having been watching the Kurdish fight for many years and I do think is now people really understand, I mean first of all people understood a lot when the attack of Halabja took place in eighties and world’s sentiments were with the Kurds, and I think Kurds have received a lot of—rightfully so—attention and favorable attention from the world, and I think it has to continue. I think the Kurds are doing a fantastic job. Peshmerga are really wonderful. In addition to me, there are a lot of people who support Peshmerga. You know I teach in my course to many students and I see how much students have taken to the Kurds’ situation…
Gulan: what do you think of the atrocities that have been taken by ISIS against Yazidis?

Mayer: I think that it is the issue of genocide and cleansings. I think these are the crimes against humanity absolutely… to take this conversation further, the people in charge should be trialed in the international court as crimes against humanity.

Gulan: and to what extent can they ask for compensation from the international community and the international court?

Mayer: the international court doesn’t give compensation, they can rule that this group should compensate, but there is no mechanism that thy can force them to compensate… that is not the job of the court, the job of the court will be to make them guilty and give punishments and send them to jail and plus you have to pay these people, but there is no mechanism to be sure the compensations are paid. The court itself doesn’t pay, the world doesn’t pay… the perpetrators need to pay, so that is the harder thing to get. Think about what happened in Rwanda, and in Balkans. The court didn’t say the world should pay, it just recognized it as a massacre…

Gulan: as you know, we have a government in Kurdistan Region which has a very limited capability, and it has suffered from economic sanction by the central government in Baghdad, and it has a population of five million people. Recently about two million refugees have added to the number. Yet the level of international humanitarian aid compared to this is very low, despite the coming winter. It is really very dangerous. So if the world cannot defeat ISIS, can they help these refugees and prevent the humanitarian disaster?

Mayer: the world is not going to do that. There a huge humanitarian problem with refugees in Jordan and the world isn’t really helping. I think that is a noble cause to ask for it, but to be realistic, there are many Syrian refugees in Jordan, and they are over a million, so the United Nations is doing what it can do and that is all. Countries are not really doing much. It will be the right thing to do but I doubt that is where the world is heading.

Gulan: the position of United States allies in the region in fighting ISIS, some US allies are not matching the US interests in the region like Turkey and Gulf countries. They are not participating or they are participating by helping Jabhat Al-Nusra in Syria which is a branch of Al-Qaeda. So if US allies are not serious about fighting ISIS, what is this supposed to mean?

Mayer: no, I don’t think so. I don’t think that you are right. I think the United States want to fight ISIS. I think the United States is in a complicated position because if they fight ISIS, it could be supporting Assad. It is not so simple. It is not a black and white thing. If they fight ISIS, it means they support Assad, but how can they support Assad? So I think the United States is in a difficult situation, the fact it doesn’t fight actively doesn’t mean it doesn’t fight ISIS.

Gulan: but do you think Turkey is right in setting conditions to fight ISIS?

Mayer: I think everybody is terrified of ISIS including Turkey, the United States, and Jordan, literally everybody. All have different positions, but I think the position, but the question is if they fight ISIS, in this fight who to be aided. I think that is to make a complicated question, I don’t want to give any credits to anybody here, but I understand why will be in a difficult position to be in.

Gulan: what do you think of Peshmerga forces fighting ISIS?

Mayer: Stay strong, stay strong, stay strong, you are right in your fighting, stay strong and keep on fighting…